Curse

Mr Pink57 · May 27, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

I dropped [Stunning Strike] for [Cruel Spear] in physical heavy areas, the +dmg is very high when u add in the ward plus OoP and they seem to spam it. I also swapped out [Vicious Attack] for [Swift Javelin] on that same bar. I also do not take Stunning in GWEN due to Interrupt Henchmen.

pink

Shaz · May 27, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Unless there is energy problem, but I don't think changing the 2 skills would change that with only 2 sec different anyway, why would you take out Vicious for Swift Javelin? Cannot be blocked is nice but meh, they both do the same damage, but Vicious recharge faster and the chance of another DW isn't bad either.

Mr Pink57 · Jun 05, 2008, 04:06 AM // 04:06

[N/D Orders; OApjQwGoqSbhTCGCJgbBhX3X4XA]

Been using this a bit more on a necro vs the derv.

pink

Kiluna · Jun 07, 2008, 08:11 PM // 20:11

I know that Master of Damage does not equal to PvE in anyway, but...
Just tested your paras on master of damage and they seem to do an average of 6,5k damage over the 180 secs. When i disabled all put one chant it increased the damage by ~60% to up to 11-12k damage over 180 secs.

So all the killing power of those 2 paras is dying on the 2 sec cast time chants.

Note: D/N was buffing them all the time.

I've also tested conjure axe and "normal" (with 3 attack skills on the one without conjure) axe builds on 2 warriors and the warriors did an average of 16k damage over the 180 secs.

Note: The warriors didn't have any kind of buffs (no orders spammer, nothing).

If only the melee AI wouldn't go crazy from little AoE... Ofcourse in real PvE warriors would have to run to the targets (lowering their damage) and they wont offer the defenses / buffs that chants will, i know that.

Ps. Over many many tests, i did not see Melonni use Dwayna's Touch a single time on self, only spamming Mystic Healing to heal the sacrificed health. So i would say that if you see it on recharge it might be because she healed someone else with it. Also i don't know if she only uses it when low on hp.

Racthoh · Jun 07, 2008, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiluna

I know that Master of Damage does not equal to PvE in anyway, but...
Just tested your paras on master of damage and they seem to do an average of 6,5k damage over the 180 secs. When i disabled all put one chant it increased the damage by ~60% to up to 11-12k damage over 180 secs.

So all the killing power of those 2 paras is dying on the 2 sec cast time chants.

Precisely, it's not PvE. Master of Damage does not factor in the blinds removed from Song of Purification, or the Faintheartedness removed from the player paragon as it drops an EBSHonor triggering Hexbreaker Aria. Paragons are about utility and damage, these builds more specifically about survival and being prepared for a variety of situations. Are the chants necessary? Maybe not, but they will most certainly show their worth in tight scenarios where you teeter on the brink of wiping. As far as I'm concerned that is what matters to me most, having the skills to pull me out of dangerous situations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiluna

Also i don't know if she only uses it when low on hp.

Has to be quite low before the hero will use it. My only theory is the hero does not recognize the Max:150 clause of the skill. As a result because the dervish is so heavily enchanted they wait until they get the full heal out of the skill. It's only a theory however and I've never tested it thoroughly.

MrSlayer · Jun 09, 2008, 01:09 AM // 01:09

I love this build setup. I've made a few changes...I grabbed the N/Rt build that Sab uses, and switched attribs around, throwing in Dark Fury. This is just because I wanted healing with a bit more of a kick, and I've never actually gained much benefit from the other skills on the Derv bar. Just personal opinion.

Anyways, I teamed up with a friend. He ran a sin, an SS, a Minion Bomber, and a N/Rt healer. I grabbed the 2 para's, myself (para ofc) and the N/Rt with Dark Fury, and damn did we chop some stuff apart <.<

ScythXIII · Jun 09, 2008, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSlayer

I love this build setup. I've made a few changes...I grabbed the N/Rt build that Sab uses, and switched attribs around, throwing in Dark Fury. This is just because I wanted healing with a bit more of a kick, and I've never actually gained much benefit from the other skills on the Derv bar. Just personal opinion.

Anyways, I teamed up with a friend. He ran a sin, an SS, a Minion Bomber, and a N/Rt healer. I grabbed the 2 para's, myself (para ofc) and the N/Rt with Dark Fury, and damn did we chop some stuff apart <.<

Sab's + Rac's = Win? :O

What type of Sin did your friend play by the way?

DarkSpirit · Jun 09, 2008, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSlayer

I love this build setup. I've made a few changes...I grabbed the N/Rt build that Sab uses, and switched attribs around, throwing in Dark Fury. This is just because I wanted healing with a bit more of a kick, and I've never actually gained much benefit from the other skills on the Derv bar. Just personal opinion.

Anyways, I teamed up with a friend. He ran a sin, an SS, a Minion Bomber, and a N/Rt healer. I grabbed the 2 para's, myself (para ofc) and the N/Rt with Dark Fury, and damn did we chop some stuff apart <.<

I have tried using a necro for orders and using the D/N. I like the D/N better for their higher armor. But I had to change it to be based on enchantment losses rather than enchantment maintained.

Here is what I use:

[build name="Orders Derv" prof=D/N blo=10 win=9+1 earthp=7+1 mys=10+1+1][Dark Fury][Order of Pain][Pious Restoration][Mystic Regeneration][Imbue Health][Signet of Pious Light][Pious Renewal][Vow of Piety][/build]

She uses Signet of Pious Light frequently for a 0 recharge, 0e, 78 heal and Imbue Health sometimes.

Kiluna · Jun 09, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Precisely, it's not PvE. Master of Damage does not factor in the blinds removed from Song of Purification, or the Faintheartedness removed from the player paragon as it drops an EBSHonor triggering Hexbreaker Aria. Paragons are about utility and damage, these builds more specifically about survival and being prepared for a variety of situations. Are the chants necessary? Maybe not, but they will most certainly show their worth in tight scenarios where you teeter on the brink of wiping. As far as I'm concerned that is what matters to me most, having the skills to pull me out of dangerous situations.

I know that, which is why i sayd that Master of Damage does not equal to PvE. I was just pointing out that the total of 4 secs required to cast all the chants on each para eats big chunk of damage from them. Yes the conditional removal, 5 energy for casters on next spell use are nice and all. But i'd also run your hero setup with SY! DB+MS spammer sin and [skill]Assassin's Remedy[/skill] does the job to remove conditions from myself, so i've been thinking to change the elite on the motivation para to [skill]Song of Restoration[/skill]. Or just to change some of them to something other, with faster cast time, or even drop away for something without a cast time (shout).

But i don't have come up with anything that good, which wouldn't break to idea of your builds. I'm not saying your build is bad or that it wouldn't work, it's great and works well. It's just that i would like to see little more damage from the paras, by lowering the cast time to 2 secs (one 2sec chant or two 1sec chants

Sorry, i came from WoW (ok i still play it) and as a raider i'm used to "min maxing" and I'd (like to) think that their damage could be increased someway without sacrifacing the utility the chants currently give. I just don't know how.
(And i can be wrong about the thing that it would be even possiple without a skill changes by aNet)

Ps. Sorry for not-so-fluent-english.

doragon · Jun 09, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

No new rit builds :/

War My Guild · Jun 14, 2008, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Alright, so I've actually done some field testing. I vanquished witman's folly, an area that the basic Sabway cannot handle because of Ventura's Gaze. We did fine, but got wiped once.

Both the paragon heroes do well. Very well, actually. I'm a little dissapointed in the Orders Derv, though. He barely ever used any healing spells. He spammed fury and Order, with the occasional arcane, but that was it. That meant that 5 slots were wasted. The only good thing was that he was never low on energy, probably because he was never healing!

I'm thinking about running a tweaked N/Rt sab healer instead of a derv:

[order of pain][dark fury][weapon of remedy][spirit light][protective was kaolai][life][signet of lost souls][vengeful weapon]
Soul reaping 10+1+1
Blood magic 10+1
Resto 11

Concept seems good.

Edit: Oh, and I'm thinking of replacing [weapon of remedy] with [order of the vampire], because [song of purification] can handle most conditions fine.

DarkSpirit · Jun 14, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by War My Guild

Both the paragon heroes do well. Very well, actually. I'm a little dissapointed in the Orders Derv, though. He barely ever used any healing spells. He spammed fury and Order, with the occasional arcane, but that was it. That meant that 5 slots were wasted. The only good thing was that he was never low on energy, probably because he was never healing!

I have said this before. You guys demand too much from the D/N. Just look at how long your orders last. OOP = 5s, DF = 5s, what do you expect her to do? Cast orders or heal? She also needs to keep up arcane zeal every 10s.

Next look at the amount of life sacrifice needed for each of them. OOP = 17%, DF = 17%. That is a huge 34% loss of hp every 5s or so. How much is 34%? If your D/N has 600hp, 34% is 180hp loss about every 5s or so, taking mysticism heals into account. (146hp if your D/N has 500hp). And that is not even including any attacks the D/N takes in HM. The D/N has to keep herself alive too.

This is why I now go for higher armor and not push up hp too much, on my D/N and go for passive self-heals which dervs get through enchantment losses. But she is only a secondary healer at best.

War My Guild · Jun 14, 2008, 03:56 PM // 15:56

True.

But the problem is, Drok's Forge only has one healer hench. I took the healer hench, a prot hench, a warrior and a mage.

That's all the healing I could get.

I have a 20/20 set on my Orders, which helps I think. Would you suggest I run the build that you posted earlier instead of the basic build?

DarkSpirit · Jun 14, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by War My Guild

True.

But the problem is, Drok's Forge only has one healer hench. I took the healer hench, a prot hench, a warrior and a mage.

That's all the healing I could get.

I have a 20/20 set on my Orders, which helps I think. Would you suggest I run the build that you posted earlier instead of the basic build?

Dont expect the D/N to be a primary healer and she does heal more when the party is dying. But when that happens, she also stops casting orders frequently, which in turn lowers the rate that you can cast your SY.

You can try my D/N build that I posted earlier. It is designed to boost the D/N's health more considering her sacrifice and she usually doesn't run out of energy. If her health stays up, she can do her job better, whether that means casting orders or using Signet of Pious Light and Imbue Health to heal other party members. But she is still a secondary party healer at best. Taking 1 or 2 hench monk should be enough to bring along with the D/N. SY should help out with most of the damages.

legacyofkain85 · Jun 15, 2008, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by War My Guild

Alright, so I've actually done some field testing. I vanquished witman's folly, an area that the basic Sabway cannot handle because of Ventura's Gaze. We did fine, but got wiped once.

Both the paragon heroes do well. Very well, actually. I'm a little dissapointed in the Orders Derv, though. He barely ever used any healing spells. He spammed fury and Order, with the occasional arcane, but that was it. That meant that 5 slots were wasted. The only good thing was that he was never low on energy, probably because he was never healing!

I'm thinking about running a tweaked N/Rt sab healer instead of a derv:

[order of pain][dark fury][weapon of remedy][spirit light][protective was kaolai][life][signet of lost souls][vengeful weapon]
Soul reaping 10+1+1
Blood magic 10+1
Resto 11

Concept seems good.

Edit: Oh, and I'm thinking of replacing [weapon of remedy] with [order of the vampire], because [song of purification] can handle most conditions fine.

dont run order of the vampìre in the same build with order of pain,hero will try mantaining both of the orders

-Lotus- · Jun 15, 2008, 02:07 PM // 14:07

you cant even run OoV with dark fury. which kinda defeats the point

Problem. · Jun 16, 2008, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I have tried using a necro for orders and using the D/N. I like the D/N better for their higher armor. But I had to change it to be based on enchantment losses rather than enchantment maintained.

Here is what I use:

[build name="Orders Derv" prof=D/N blo=10 win=9+1 earthp=7+1 mys=10+1+1][Dark Fury][Order of Pain][Pious Restoration][Mystic Regeneration][Imbue Health][Signet of Pious Light][Pious Renewal][Vow of Piety][/build]

She uses Signet of Pious Light frequently for a 0 recharge, 0e, 78 heal and Imbue Health sometimes.

Your Orders Derv is highly inefficient. If You running Earth Prayers, run Earth Prayers. If you running Wind Prayers, run Wind Prayers. Your speccing way too much.

Earth Prayers benefits from things like [[Vital Boon], [[Signet of Pious Light], [[Armor of Sanctity], [[Mystic Regen], [[Mirage Cloak].
By going Earth Prayers you wont need additional self heals because of a combination of Vital Boon and Mystic Regen, you gain additional spot heals from Signet of Pious Light and a slot from Imbue Health.

Wind Prayers benefits from things like [[Mystic Healing], [[Vow of Piety], [[Dwayna's Touch]
By going Wind Prayers you gain additional party healing, and your self heal is
Dwayna's Touch.

DarkSpirit · Jun 16, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Problem.

Your Orders Derv is highly inefficient. If You running Earth Prayers, run Earth Prayers. If you running Wind Prayers, run Wind Prayers. Your speccing way too much.

Things are alittle different for an Orders Derv. The Orders Derv main job is to cast both OOP and DF every 5s. This means a cost of 20e and 34% of max hp every 5s. Because of the short duration of both orders, passive healing is more useful. Also, you want to avoid casting small short recharge heals since if the Derv is too busy casting heals, she will stop casting Orders which would reduce the frequency of SY and reduce party damage.

Quote:

Earth Prayers benefits from things like [[Vital Boon], [[Signet of Pious Light], [[Armor of Sanctity], [[Mystic Regen], [[Mirage Cloak].
By going Earth Prayers you wont need additional self heals because of a combination of Vital Boon and Mystic Regen, you gain additional spot heals from Signet of Pious Light and a slot from Imbue Health.

I dont like Mirage Cloak on my Orders Derv because it is too energy intensive and lasts for only 10s. Similarly for Armor of Sanctity for lasting so short. Short duration means that there is a higher chance for them to draw the derv's attention to recast them more frequently and take time away from her main job of casting orders. Vital Boon is actually decent since it lasts for 20s but its effectiveness would depends on your Earth Prayer level and how much you think that extra health can last for the next 20s.

Quote:

Wind Prayers benefits from things like [[Mystic Healing], [[Vow of Piety], [[Dwayna's Touch]
By going Wind Prayers you gain additional party healing, and your self heal is
Dwayna's Touch.

Dwayna's Touch is not as effective on the Derv due to the short recharge. If the orders derv uses it to heal someone, she has to run towards the person, endangering herself. The hero doesn't seem to use this well as a self heal either. What is more useful is an enchantment with passive healing in the background like Mystic Regen.

Optimally, you want the cost of orders to be paid for when they are cast or when they expire since they only last for a short 5s, which is why I use Pious Renewal. If the orders derv loses too much health either through sacrifice or damage, then she would stop casting orders and attempt to heal herself. She uses Mystic Regen for self heal very well and it allows her to continue casting orders while self healing is underway. Dwayna's Touch on the other hand would require her to stop casting orders and use that time to keep healing herself and when orders expire Dwayna's Touch would lose its effectiveness and the derv would have to cast more of it to self heal, taking even more time away from casting orders. If you have good primary healers, they can help up with healing your derv, but only your derv can cast orders that the party depend on for success.

Richardt · Jun 16, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by War My Guild

I'm thinking about running a tweaked N/Rt sab healer instead of a derv:

[order of pain][dark fury][weapon of remedy][spirit light][protective was kaolai][life][signet of lost souls][vengeful weapon]
Soul reaping 10+1+1
Blood magic 10+1
Resto 11

Concept seems good.

Edit: Oh, and I'm thinking of replacing [weapon of remedy] with [order of the vampire], because [song of purification] can handle most conditions fine.

I have my own issues with the D/N, that's why I posted a variant several pages back:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

[build prof=n/rt box name="Restoring Orders" blood=9+1+2 soulreaping=9+1 restoration=12][weapon of remedy][ghostmirror light][spirit light][mend body and soul][life][signet of lost souls][dark fury][order of pain][/build]

Since then I've made some modifications, so the final build looks like:

[build prof=n/rt box name="Restoring Orders" blood=9+1+2 soulreaping=9+1 restoration=12][preservation][ghostmirror light][spirit light][mend body and soul][soothing memories][signet of lost souls][dark fury][order of pain][/build]

It works pretty good-[preservation] is a nice heal and while at first I thought it was pretty random, tests show that it's not-it'll actually whoever needs healing every 4 sec-which is about the same amount of time a normal rit heal takes to recharge.

Using this in place of the D/N I was able to tear across most of Tyria vanquishing and have done just about all the dungeons in HM.

Problem. · Jun 16, 2008, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Not for an Orders Derv. You forgot that the Orders Derv main job is to cast both OOP and DF every 5s. This means a cost of 20e and 34% of max hp every 5s. Because of the short duration of both orders, passive healing is more useful. Also, you want to avoid casting small short recharge heals since if the Derv is too busy casting heals, she will stop casting Orders which would reduce the frequency of SY and reduce party damage.

I dont like Mirage Cloak on my Orders Derv because it is too energy intensive and lasts for only 10s. Similarly for Armor of Sanctity for lasting so short. Short duration means that there is a higher chance for them to draw the derv's attention to recast them more frequently and take time away from her main job of casting orders. Vital Boon is actually decent since it lasts for 20s but its effectiveness would depends on your Earth Prayer level and how much you think that extra health can last for the next 20s.

Dwayna's Touch is not as effective on the Derv due to the short recharge. If the orders derv uses it to heal someone, she has to run towards the person, endangering herself. The hero doesn't seem to use this well as a self heal either. What is more useful is an enchantment with passive healing in the background like Mystic Regen.

Optimally, you want the cost of orders to be paid for when they are cast or when they expire since they only last for a short 5s, which is why I use Pious Renewal. If the orders derv loses too much health either through sacrifice or damage, then she would stop casting orders and attempt to heal herself. She uses Mystic Regen for self heal very well and it allows her to continue casting orders while self healing is underway. Dwayna's Touch on the other hand would require her to stop casting orders and use that time to keep healing herself and when orders expire Dwayna's Touch would lose its effectiveness and the derv would have to cast more of it to self heal, taking even more time away from casting orders. If you have good primary healers, they can help up with healing your derv, but only your derv can cast orders that the party depend on for success.

I'm not questioning your use of Pious Renewal. I'm questioning your really inefficient split of Earth Prayers and Wind Prayers. And I didn't forget anything. I know all about this Orders Dervish, I've run something similar in both TA, and GvG. In TA, it was Pious Renewal Healer and in GvG, it was an Apostasy Runner.

If you spec Earth Prayers, you can then buff up both your Earth Prayers and Mysticism equating to a higher healing power between both Signet of Pious Light and Imbue Health.

[build prof=D/N name="Pious Renewal" mys=10+1+1 earthp=10+1 blo=11][Pious Renewal][Dark Fury][Order of Pain][Signet of Pious Light][Imbue Health][Mystic Regeneration][Vital Boon][no skill][/build]
Free slot is your choice. This is already a better build than the one you currently use because the attributes aren't split all over the place, making all the skills not worth it. Pious Renewal also benefits more from the quick recharge/casts of the Earth Prayers line.

[build prof=D/N name="Arcane Zeal" mys=10+1+1 wind=10+1 blo=11][Arcane Zeal][Dark Fury][Order of Pain][Mystic Healing][Dwayna's Touch][Vow of Piety][Watchful Intervention][Faithful Intervention][/build]
If you go Wind Prayers, you will benefit more from Arcane Zeal because the enchantments are a lot longer in duration and wont be getting Signet of Pious Lighted off.

If you aren't using an enchanting mod, that's pretty bad. An enchanting mod gives the Dervish 6 seconds to be doing whatever with in between, b/c they wont recast the orders until they're expiring. Also, if you can't get 4 hits in 6 seconds to put up SY!, then theres something wrong with what you are doing.

Regarding your disapproval of Armor of Sanctity. Armor of Sanctity will last the Dervish 12 seconds with enchanting mod. For 5 Energy, it only fuels his Energy because of Pious Renewal (I know, refer back to my play with a Pious Renewal healer), and his Signet of Pious Light. Also, with the Paragons spitting out conditions, hopefully thats what they are doing, the Dervish shouldn't really take much dmg. The dmg negated by Armor of Sanctity will make him near invulnerable. And as already stated, Heros wont recast stuff just because its recharged.

Regarding Vital Boon. I dont think you understand its use in this build. Its not to give the Dervish extra hp...extra hp in this case isn't good because it means he will sac more health. Vital Boon is for its synergy with Signet of Pious Light. When used as a self heal in conjunction with Signet of Pious Light, you get like a 250+ heal.

Regarding Dwayna's Touch. The Dervish has 6 seconds to heal itself! Theres no reason it shouldn't be able to do that within that timeframe. I do agree with you on the Mystic Regeneration part though. Also, that is why flagging is pretty key. If you flag the Dervish at the appropriate distance, they wont try to Dwayna's Touch others for heals, just themselves.

I would also like to note that I dont benefit from Save Yourselves because my pve-char is a Monk, and still have no troubles. I experimented with Life Barrier but enchant removal poses too much of a problem, and once bonds are down, the character is useless. And such, I run with an Angelic Bonder.

*edit*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

[build prof=n/rt box name="Restoring Orders" blood=9+1+2 soulreaping=9+1 restoration=12][preservation][ghostmirror light][spirit light][mend body and soul][soothing memories][signet of lost souls][dark fury][order of pain][/build]

Slotting Soothing Memories without an item is pretty dumb. Might as well put Spirit Transfer in that spot.